THE TV HOST, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, PODCASTER, AND AUTHOR IS COMING TO THE WIT
AUG 24
By Anastasia Stanmeyer
It’s Friday, and Rachel Maddow is talking with me from neighboring Hampshire County, where she lives with her partner, Susan Mikula. I’m deep into reading Maddow’s latest book, Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism, and am looking forward to discussing that with her, as well as her time at MSNBC, the many projects she’s involved in (such as the podcast “Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra,” Season Two), and a host of other talking points. The bestselling author and Emmy®-winning broadcaster will be in discussion with Tony Kushner on Saturday, September 28, during the Authors Guild Foundation’s WIT Literary Festival in Lenox. (See the interview with Kushner on page 86.) I was told that I would have 15 minutes with Maddow. Hard stop. It had been a long week, and the phone call is at 6:30 p.m.
Anastasia: Hi Rachel. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. Are you off this weekend? Or is this a working weekend?
Rachel: It’s funny, actually. Susan and I had planned for a year in advance that this was going to be our vacation for the year. We were actually planning on leaving today. That has been long cancelled. In election years, you can't really plan anything in advance. I've got all the election stuff that’s arising with the late-planned debate and the Supreme Court rulings going into July, which is unheard of.
Supreme Court rulings are supposed to be done by now. I’m right in the middle of releasing Season Two of my podcast, “Ultra.” Leading up to the actual publishing of each episode, it’s a lot of detail-oriented work to get it fine-tuned. So it’s really labor-intensive. There was way too much going on. But it's all good. I'm happy to do all the work, it’s just that in times like this, it’s sort of everything all at once.
Anastasia: I can fully understand that. You're going to be here, right in your backyard, at the WIT Festival in September.
Rachel: I’m really excited about it. When Tony asked me to do it, I was like, “Are you kidding? Yes!”
Anastasia: I was reading that your first job as a radio host was in ’99, in Holyoke. And then in Northampton. You have a long history in the region.
Rachel: I moved to Western Massachusetts in September of 1998, and then I started working at WRNX in Holyoke in 1999. I left that job to go back to grad school. I had been working on my dissertation the whole time, but I had to go defend my dissertation. So I left the radio job and thought that would be it. While I was off to do my dissertation, right after I did my oral exams, 9/11 happened, and I called up WRSI in Northampton and asked them if I could take some shifts because it was such a crazy time. I thought I could be helpful. That's how I got back into radio. And that led to Air America. And that led to MSNBC. And that led to this very busy weekend.
Anastasia: You’re in good company at the WIT Festival. Along with Tony and yourself, there’s Jennifer Egan and Joseph O'Neill and Emily Wilson and Stephen Greenblatt and so on. The topic that you're going to be talking about is “Democracy in America Today.” My million-dollar question is this: What is the state of democracy today?
Rachel: Maybe by September, we'll have more clarity. You know how you're trying to navigate to a new page on the internet, and it says buffering? That's the status of democracy now. Buffering. We'll wait to see if it resolves. Or, it's like you're waiting for a text message, and there's three dots rolling. I know something's happening, but I don't know what it's going to be when it arrives. It's obvious, we’re in a very precarious position, both with this election and with this being the first national election since the last one resulted in a riot at the Capitol in an effort to try to seize power by force. Anybody who feels like they know what's going to happen is either magic or lying. I don't believe in magic.
Anastasia: What do you think Biden should do?
Rachel: I don't give politicians advice, as a general matter. A, because I'd be terrible at it. But B, because I never want anybody to think that my coverage is dependent on whether or not somebody's taking my advice. It would be helpful—and again, this may be out of date by the time you publish—in the immediate aftermath of that first debate, I think the thing that's useful to keep in mind is that there isn't some external process in either of the parties that removes a nominee or a decision that's specific to the party's needs, that’s independent. The way that our political parties work in this country is that if you're the nominee, you're the leader of the party, you decide what you want to do, and then that's what happens. So there isn't anybody who can make this decision other than President Biden himself. That holds true for both sides of the equation. If he wants to change his campaign in some way materially, to try to address the concerns that really came to the fore with his debate performance, that's his call. If he wants to no longer be the nominee and shake it up in that way, that's also his call. There isn't any other authority to appeal to. I feel like in moments like this, maybe what is helpful for me is to be kind of expository. Here's the rules. Here's how these things work. Here's the available range of options. I'm just trying to stay focused on helping people, have useful information that's fact-based and real. Then they can make their own decisions.
Anastasia: I want to talk about some of the exciting things that you have coming up. You're participating in a big event called MSNBC Live: Democracy 2024, scheduled for September 7 at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. Can you tell me about that?
Rachel: This is something we've never done before, and I’m actually really excited about it. One of the things that's heartening and energizing and just cool about working at MSNBC is that people who watch MSNBC regularly and who like our programming, there's a sort of earnest enthusiasm and kindness about it. I don't think we're rousing our audiences to do any particular thing in the streets. We’re not organizing anything politically, but we have organized a sort of community of people who appreciate what we do and the way that we do it. In our increasingly atomized, digitally mediated culture, when there is an occasion to do something in real life— in the flesh—it’s great to see people who are coming together because they watch MSNBC and they like MSNBC, to meet each other and to see each other out in the world. I've experienced that a couple of times in this past year. I did a live, in-person event with Chris Hayes at the Public Theater. I did another live, in-person event with Joy Reid at the Apollo Theater in Harlem, and I've also done my own book tour events all over the country this year. Each time, it feels like such a cool, sort of earnest, warm-hearted thing just for people to be able to meet each other and see each other in real life. You don't have to live inside your telephone. When you watch on TV, you're not necessarily alone. There are other people who may want to get to know you, who have some of the same ideas and appreciate some of the same things that you do. This is an effort to capture a little bit of that spirit, which we've all experienced in small ways in our own individual live events, and to bring people together in a bigger group. It's one of the things I'm most looking forward to about the fall.
Anastasia: The chart-topping Season Two of “Ultra” launched on June 10, focusing on the ultra right in the post-war 1950s. How are you getting the material?
Rachel: One of the things that's great about my job is that you never know where your research and fact-finding stuff is going to take you. When we were doing basic research, in reading to understand some of the historical context for the things that we're going through in our politics right now, I sort of stumbled into the story of Season One with the Great Sedition Trial from 1944. That led me into what's now Season Two. It’s essentially academic research; it’s all archival stuff. I'm sort of buried in FBI files and photocopies and microfiche printouts from archives all over the country. “Ultra” Season Two covers a subject that other historians have talked about, whereas “Ultra” Season One was really obscure. I love finding these stories that aren't widely known, adding something original to them, getting historians talk about it but also digging into the archives and finding this stuff. I'm just astounded by the modern resonance of some of these very dark previous moments in our democracy, where we really felt like we might lose our form of government. To me, it's heartening, because it means that Americans before us faced similarly scary challenges, and they prevailed. I'm just trying to learn from them every way I can.
Anastasia: What drew you to write the book Prequel?
Rachel: Part of this is just the desire to get the story out there. The story of the ultra-right in the United States in the lead- up to World War II is a story that hasn't been told in a way that's really intended for a modern audience. There's some academic scholarship on it. There's starting to be some sort of public facing history on it, books like Steven Ross's book, Hitler in Los Angeles; he was one of the voices on the podcasts for “Ultra” Season One. Given how many parallels there are in our current moment to that moment, 80-something years ago, it ought to be a story that's more accessible, that is written for a popular audience and for anybody who's interested in current affairs. I wanted to present it both in podcast form and the expanded version in the book in a way that was for a generalist reader. Not for somebody who already has specialist knowledge in that area, but somebody who's just legitimately curious about American history and the way that we've contended with dark forces on the extreme right. That led me to Season Two, which was a whole different story, but it involves a whole bunch of the same characters from Season One, from Prequel, when these guys got put on trial, and then the judge died, and there was a mistrial. The Justice Department decided to let them all go, Well, what did they all go do? Turns out, there's a story there, too. That's got us to Season Two of “Ultra.” I'm fascinated by these episodes in history.
Anastasia: I’m looking forward to going through it all, and maybe you’ll have a second book, too?
Rachel: I think I've got another book on the mid-century American flirtation with fascism.
Anastasia: And you’re working on a project with Tony Kushner—a feature adaptation of your podcast “Ultra”.
Rachel: Tony Kushner and Danny Strong are collaborating on the screenplay. It’s for Steven Spielberg to produce and, hopefully, direct. I essentially have become a consultant to my own story. I provide them materials, in terms of what I based a lot of the storytelling on in the book and in the podcast and have been available to them, helping them work through ideas and helping them find stuff and find people to talk to and find archives. It’s an absolute dream come true. I've a serious impostor syndrome, working with people like these guys. If it comes to be, if this actually becomes a movie and they write it with their artistry and their intelligence, I can't wait to see what it becomes.
Anastasia: What do you hope to talk about with Tony at the WIT Festival?
Rachel: A big part of me feels like he's Tony Kushner; if he wants to talk about the phone book, we’ll talk about the phone book. What does Tony Kushner want to talk about? Well, that's what I want to talk about. I will absolutely defer to him on whatever he wants to talk about. Out of all the interviews that I've ever done in my local radio career, in my national radio career, in all the different jobs that I've had at MSNBC, including the TV show that I've had in my own name there for 15 years, out of everybody I've ever interviewed, Tony Kushner is the smartest person I have ever spoken to. I just feel like he's operating at the intellectual level that the rest of us are all sort of in awe of, and none of us are matching. I am really interested in what is on his mind, and I will hope to make good enough conversation with him about it to hold up my side of the stage. He’s a hero of mine, so I'll talk about whatever he wants.
Anastasia: I have no doubt you'll hold your end of the talk. We did talk to Tony, and we asked him a few questions that I thought I'd just throw out to you, as well. Here’s one: Is the role of a leader to represent the people’s wishes—or is it the responsibility of a leader to create a vision and correct injustice?
Rachel: Hm. I think the answer is yes. The best leaders synthesize those two things. You both understand where people are and represent their needs and desires and their best interests. But you also have an—if not exalted—at least selfless understanding of their best interests and of what's coming down the pike and of what people need to prepare for that they themselves may not necessarily see, if that makes sense.
You think about President Roosevelt, for example, in 1940. He was up against what was then and is still to this day, the largest anti-war movement this country has ever had, which was the America First movement with people like the most famous industrialist in the country, Henry Ford, and the most famous celebrity in the country, Charles Lindbergh, and the head of the Olympic Committee, Avery Brundage, and the most important media figure in the country, Charles Coughlin. All of these people had their tent poles in American culture and commerce, and they're all on the other side of the issue. The platform of both the Democratic and Republican Party in 1940 is that we're not going to war. Roosevelt’s promising and promising and promising we're not going to war. And he knows that's where the people are, but he also knows that we are likely going to war, and we have to prepare. And so, I need to follow the will of the people and also prepare for what I think is inevitably coming and that we will not have a choice about. That's Roosevelt's genius and bravery, and his opponents hated him for it. But he was right, and he saved the country because of that sort of strength.
Anastasia: It sounds like he was a realist.
Rachel: He was a realist in terms of what was politically possible, but he was also absolutely uncompromising when it came to finding a way to get done what needed to be done. We needed a manpower agenda for the country, for how we were going to retool ourselves as a country industrially—in order to keep our economy alive and arm both ourselves and all the allies. Okay, we're gonna do it. And we're doing it while we have a population that does not want us to go to war and that is every day asking me to promise that we won’t. How do you do both those things at once? It takes a form of political genius.
Anastasia: The left and the right have so many opposing views. How does one find common ground? How do we accept democracy, even if we're not happy with the results?
Rachel: Democracy is a process, not a result. Democracy means everybody gets a say; everybody gets treated fairly. Our rulers are responsible to us. That’s basically the idea of democracy, and the sort of American faith. We don't have a national religion.
We don't have a national language. We don't have a creed of any kind that everybody in the country needs to subscribe to. But the American creed we need to share is that whatever differences we have, and whatever different things we want for the country, we're going to seek those ends by a means that is fair and that includes all of our fellow citizens.
Anastasia: You and Tony are both liberals and you're in a supportive audience. Who on the right would you like to sit down and have a discussion on democracy with?
Rachel: The first book I ever wrote was called Drift: The Unmooring of American Military Power, and it was dedicated to Dick Cheney, because he had a profound impact on in the country in that regard. I think my dedication to him is something like, oh, please let me interview you. Fast-forward a decade and a half, and he's no longer in public life. But his daughter, who absolutely embodies every one of his principles and positions, did sit down with me not long ago at MSNBC. We talked about how we disagree on every matter of policy and how we absolutely agree and see ourselves as allies in terms of wanting to stick up for the American form of government. And so, I feel like, pinch me, I'm working on something with Tony Kushner, but also pinch me, I’m on the same side of this political issue with Liz Cheney. It's lions and lambs lying down; its cats and dogs making friends.
Anastasia: Thank you so much for your time, and I'm really looking forward to hearing you talk with Tony at the WIT Festival.
Rachel: When you get to the part in Prequel about Lawrence Dennis, you should know that he lived in Becket.
Anastasia: That was the final question I was hoping to ask you: Did you discover anybody in the Berkshires in your research of Prequel?
Rachel: Lawrence Dennis, who has a starring role in Prequel, moved in May 1941 to Becket just before World War II started and lived there for years and had a very active social life in the Berkshires. He was universally billed as America's number one fascist. There's great correspondence in his files between him and Colonel A.D. Budd, whose home has been preserved by the Trustees of Reservations, the site of his home is now Notchview, which is the great cross-country skiing trailhead in Windsor, Mass. What’s now the A.D. Budd Reservation, what was then his home, was the site of many long weekends and long late-night dinner parties with Colonel Budd and with America's number one fascist force and a cast of incredible characters who made their home in the Berkshires during World War II and after and had a pretty bizarre social life up here.
Anastasia: I had no idea what was going on in the woods in the Berkshires.
Rachel: Notchview is great now, but it has a history.
And with that, we exchanged a few other casual words, and the interview was over. I looked at the time, and our conversation had closed in at 30 minutes. Twice as long as I was given, but not nearly enough time. I’ll hear more when she is at the WIT, center stage with Kushner. It’s another conversation I don’t want to miss, and I have a feeling that Rachel will have no problem holding up her end of the stage.
The Authors Guild Foundation’s 3rd Annual WIT Literary Festival is Friday to Sunday, September 27 to 29, at Shakespeare & Company in Lenox.
Saturday, September 28: 10 a.m. Tony Kushner & Rachel Maddow
Tickets on sale July 24.
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